Please enjoy this transcript of our interview with Coach Tom Mullins. It was transcribed and therefore might contain a few typos. For ways to connect with Tom, the notes, and for links to everything discussed, check out our show notes.
Tom Mullins: 00:00 In a relay race, you’re running, you have an exchange zone, and then the exchange zone, the runners coming in their full speed, well I was at full speed. One thing I’ve learned, I tell guys all the time, don’t pass the baton when you’re starting to slow down, pass the baton when you’re still at full speed, while you still got a lot of run in you, that’s when you pass it. You don’t walk away from the game when you’re worn out and injured, you want to be at the top of your game. When you pass the baton, you gotta hit the exchange zone at full speed.
Doug Smith: 00:32 This is the L3 leadership podcast, episode number 206
Doug Smith: 00:48 Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of the L3 leadership podcast. My name is Doug Smith and I am your host. I hope you’re having a great day, in today’s episode you’ll hear my interview with a leadership legend coach Tom Mullins. If you’re unfamiliar with coach, let me just tell you a few things you need to know about him. He founded Christ Fellowship Church in West Palm Beach, Florida, and that church now has over 51,000 people attending on a weekly basis. He also successfully handed over the church to a son and daughter-in-law a few years ago, and since that time the church has doubled in size, which is pretty crazy, and we actually talk about how he transitioned to the church, to the next generation in the interview, and he has so much wisdom on this. You’re going to love that part. Before founding the church, he was a football coach at the college and high school level.
Doug Smith: 01:30 He’s been the past president of John Maxwell’s organization, Equip. He’s co-founded Place of Hope, a residential community of homes for neglected and abused children in Florida and he’s been married to his wife for over 50 years. He is an incredible leader and I promise you, you will be fired up at this man’s energy and what he’s doing with his life in his seventies, but before we dive into the interview with coach, just a brief announcement. If you’re in ministry, you’re a church leader or a church member, then I want to let you know about a conference you will not want to miss. My friends at Amplify Church and their leader, Lee Krajcir are hosting their annual Future Forward Conference here in Pittsburgh on October second and third. This year they’re having Carey Neuhoff come in as their keynote speaker and if you don’t know Carrie, you need to.
Doug Smith: 02:11 He’s one of the leading voices in the leadership space in the world today. He actually just came out with a new book called, Didn’t See it Coming. I just finished it this week. It is an absolute must-read for every leader. So if you’re listening to this going by Carey’s book and it’ll obviously be available at the conference. I’m going to be there. I cannot wait and I encourage you to come to the conference as well. So if you want to learn more about the conference and register your team, go to future for churches.com. With that said, let’s dive right into the interview with coach and I’ll be back at the end with a few announcements. Thank you so much for being willing to do this interview. It’s an honor I’ve been following you for a long time. And why don’t we just start off for those who don’t know you, with you telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Tom Mullins: 02:54 My name is Tom Mullins. I coached football for about 15 years. That’s why I’ve been stuck with the title of coach. Most people call me coach, I went to school at Georgetown College, played football there, graduated from there, got my master’s degree there, went into athletics, coaching both on a high school and college level. Became a college athletic director, felt the call of God to ministry back in 1983. I can’t believe it’s been that long ago and I stepped to follow the Lord into ministry and my wife and I stepped out by faith and planted a church called Christ Fellowship here in south Florida. Thirty-five years ago. I went back and got my doctorate degree from Liberty University and Liberty Seminary. And I’m currently pursuing my Ph.D. in organizational leadership from Southeastern University. I’ve completed my coursework and I’m working on my dissertation as we do this podcast. As I told Doug, hey, we got to make this short baby. I got a lot of work to do because I’m trying to graduate this December and walk with my Ph.D. in organizational leadership. So that’s the short and skinny on Tom Mullins.
Doug Smith: 04:14 Yeah. And so, so over your journey, the church that you planted now has over 40,000 people in attendance through multiple campuses. And I’m just curious as people look at your journey, what do you wish people knew about your journey and what it took to get here that they may not know?
Tom Mullins: 04:28 Well, I think with any journey, like we’d been on a, there’s a lot to be said about just tenacity. You have to, you have to have a commitment to whatever that call and pursuit is in your life. And um, because the, the early years of Christ Fellowship, um, there wasn’t much glamour or there wasn’t much going on. I mean, it was a very small group of us just trying to be faithful, pursue the heart of the Lord and, you know, there was, I think it was my testing time as well, but you know, a great thing playing football, you have to learn how to play through the pain. When you’re coaching you got to learn how to have that tenacity that makes you really have grit and, and it develops and strengthens your character. And I look back on those early years and I think that that was a big part of it, just being, staying committed, staying faithful.
Tom Mullins: 05:22 Whatever assignment you have, no matter how large or small it is, be faithful to that assignment. And I think there’s a lot of, my grandfather taught me that principle, Doug, that no matter what assignment you have, do it with all your heart and do your best. I wrote a book one time called the Leadership Game and it was a how-to really lead like a coach would in your organization. And I interviewed a national championship coaches how they, it’s kind of like the, from good to great model. You know what, what’s, how’d you go from good to great with your championship thing? And one the coaches I interviewed from down at the University of Miami, he told me, he said, you know, the key is to bloom where you’re planted, in other words, whatever, wherever you find yourself do your best with what you have and who you’re working with and, and try to add value. And I think that was probably the foundation for our journey and still is today. We want to be faithful with every assignment we have, do our best and add value to the people and to the team that’s working with you.
Doug Smith: 06:30 So you’re not at your finish line yet, but you’ve gone a lot farther than a lot of leaders have. I’m sure throughout your journey you’ve seen a lot of leaders fall off or get off track of their race and now it doesn’t look like they’re gonna make it to their finish line. I’m just curious, what advice do you have and where do you see leaders get off track to where they fall off and get off course and not make it to their finish line? And what would you encourage young leaders to avoid those pitfalls?
Tom Mullins: 06:56 Well, I think a lot depends on, in my world, it’s keeping your personal relationship with your Creator, fresh and vibrant, keeping that mission simple and clear in front of you. And I think then having a team around you of accountability. I think it’s important. I’m blessed with a great wife. Donna and I had been married for 53 years. She’s been my girlfriend for 57 years. And I think that that relationship is strong and vibrant. We’re together and unified in our mission and I’ve always had great men around me. And I’ve always had this sense of accountability. I’ve been staying focused on that and I think part of the problem is as you grow or become more successful in your organization, we have a tendency to be pulled out from many different directions. And I think being able to stay focused on mission, and, and realize the difference between good and best and always try to select the best, never compromise your core values.
Tom Mullins: 08:11 And those core values have to be there as guidelines for your life. And I think that’s what protects your life. I think it’s when you start compromising that, you know, and, and I’ve set these core values and parameters for my personal life, my professional life, my interaction in my professional life. I’ve always told men, for instance, a Doug, you know, be careful in everything you do. Be careful in all your associations. And in my world, the church world, you know, I never have a meeting with a woman alone. I always have a covering a, you never counsel someone alone of the opposite sex. I’m just saying guard yourself against anything to could look like something is not right. And then do everything with integrity, you know, from the smallest aspects, guard your integrity in all things. And, and I think that’s how you protect yourself and stay focused for the long haul.
Doug Smith: 09:09 I love that. So over the course of growing your church, I’m just curious, were there one or two significant leadership lessons that you learned that changed everything and that were pivotal for you guys to go to where God wanted you to get?
Tom Mullins: 09:21 Yeah, I think there’s several. You know, you run into encounter people that long your life that really help you grow in your leadership. And, I experienced that. I think one of the lessons that I needed to transfer over from my coaching years was in the early years I tried to fit into a standard mold of the leadership model of most churches and most pastors. And then I realized, you know, what, what am I doing? I’m not playing to my strengths. I need to go where I’m strong. So I’m strong. I’m a coach. So why not coach? When we, when I made that turn and gave myself the freedom to just be the coach, I am, I changed even the language of our organization. We no longer had committees, we had teams. We no longer had chairpersons. We had captains. You know, we, I just went back to my terminology and my approach of giving people unified on a goal focused on that mission and let’s go charge it together.
Tom Mullins: 10:22 And I think that was a big breakthrough for me. Another one was I met a guy by the name of John Maxwell and God brought John into my life and, we hooked up early on it. Gosh it’s been over 20 years now and you know, being around John, this great leader that he is a great writer he is..The first time I met him and heard him, doug I bought every book, every tape. He had 100 set cassette tape. I bought everything and I took them all and I listened to those puppy dogs. I was never in a car when I wasn’t listening to John Maxwell tapes and I’m going, yeah, that’s right. That’s right, that’s right. He was reinforcing really all the core leadership fundamentals for our lives. And, and that was a big turning point as well. And there’s one more that I think was important for me.
Tom Mullins: 11:11 I realized that early on, I tried to be “Super Pastor”, I tried to do everything myself and I realized that that’s not how you do it. You’ve got to empower your team. So when I started empowering people more and realizing not only do I need to be out there producing, but I need to be reproducing, I, I’ve got to be sowing into my team members because here’s what I know to grow your organization, you have to grow your team. If you don’t grow the team, your organization is going to hit a lid. You know, John talks about the law of the lid and hitting that lid, you know, and typically leadership is, or the lack of development of leadership becomes that which creates the lid on any organization.
Doug Smith: 11:56 So when it comes time for you to invest in, leaders, period, what have you found the best ways to actually develop leaders are?
Tom Mullins: 12:04 Well, I think it was multiple ways. I think, first of all, you’ve got to take time to invest and build a relationship with those that you’re trying to instill leadership in. I want to, I want a mentor, there’s worship, there’s coaching, there’s exposing them to great materials. We challenge our staff to have personal growth tracks, which involves certain books we’re going to read each month together, down to getting them exposed to great champions. I’m bringing guys like John Maxwell in here to speak and coach our team up taking are taking our team and exposing them to other successful organizations, to other areas to other great leaders. Uh, I learned that my football days, you know, coaches are just, you know, what we’re all the time about trying to learn from the other coaches, you know, we’re going to coaching clinics, we’re going to other practices.
Tom Mullins: 12:58 I always traveled to the bigger schools with the better programs to learn from them. So we do that with our church, a team. We try to expose them to people that are down the road in whatever their expertise are so they can learn from them as well. So I think there’s a multifaceted approach, but it’s really, I think the key to helping your team grow Doug is, you got to keep yourself growing. You know, I’m 73 years old and I go before my dissertation committee or actually my committee, it will become my dissertation committee at Southeastern University and they asked me to the point this question, why are you wanting to get a PhD at 73 years of age? I said, it’s very simple guys. I want to keep growing and I want to serve as an example to my staff that you keep growing because here’s what I believe, Doug, the day you stop growing yourself as a leader, you start losing the effectiveness to lead, and so if we’re not learning, we eventually will stop leading. So that that’s kind of the model of my life that we lead by example. That’s a big thing. So I think setting that example for your team and having that hunger to grow yourself in turn helps motivate your team to grow.
Doug Smith: 14:17 And I’m curious, so you’ve. You’ve had the opportunity to actually do life with some of the leaders that God is using in some of the most significant ways, including yourself on a planet outside of the Chris Hodges, John Maxwell, Christ fellowship. Have you noticed patterns or characteristics in leaders like yourself, John Maxwell, Chris Hodges, that, what is it about them that allows God to use them in that way as you’ve been able to interact with them?
Tom Mullins: 14:38 Well, I think John would would say that he is very intentional about the way he structures his life. Chris Hodges, Church of the Highlands, probably the fastest growing church in America, second largest church in America, second only in Life Church is the same way. Chris are very focused, intentional, disciplined,, man, the way he structures his life, and his focus and he’s able to really, stay in his strength and a discern where he needs to invest his time for the greatest return. And he’s had the ability to develop a great team around him. And I think that’s the mark of all great leaders. Look at the team around them. Who are they attracting around them? And I think that really indicates the quality of the leader. So I think the ability to build strong teams around you. You know, one thing as a coach, I’m a recruiter to be a successful coach, you got to be a great recruiter and I think to be a great leader of an organization, you’ve got to be a great recruiter. You’ve got to recognize talent potential, recruit that talent and then help train that talent and power that talent, get them on the field and then become their number one cheerleader. See, I’m a big one on encouragement, affirmation, affirming people the power of celebration in your organization. And I think that leads to success and I think that you will find those traits in, in most of your top key leaders.
Doug Smith: 16:17 Do you balance that with candor or you all? Are you more encouragement or are you a pretty good mix of both?
Tom Mullins: 16:23 I think you have to be. I mean, you, you’ve got to deal with the issue straight on, you know, with people, but you try to keep it in a, in a tone that is a effective and consistent. You know, a Maxwell said this years ago, and I believe with all my heart that if someone’s going to follow you, and especially in our world as in church leadership world, we have to lead not only staff members, but we have to leave tens of thousands of volunteers. It takes thousands of volunteers, leaders, well, what prompts people to want to follow you in the first place or even be really loyal and committed to you and to your leadership and and there’s three, three things that John’s talked about it and I’ve written on it as well. The first thing is that they’ve got to see that there’s character and integrity in your life and that they can trust you.
Tom Mullins: 17:13 If people can’t trust you, they won’t follow you effectively, they may follow you because they’re forced to because of a title or position for them to follow you with their heart they’ve got to trust you. They’ve got to know you’re a person of character. Therefore, your consistency is essential and how you’re reflecting that character and your actions and reactions every day. The second thing is that they want to know that you’re competent, that you actually have the skill set that is necessary to lead the organization and to lead them, and to, that there’s value you can add to them and help them in their area of life or leadership or whatever it is within the organization so that competence is an important thing. Keeping yourself in sharpening your skills, always improving yourself, always trying to grow yourself is absolutely essential, and then the third one is the compassion factor that you’re wanting to connect to people at their point of need and add value to them because you truly care about them. So you think about it, Doug, you want to be around people that true character, people that are competent and skillful and people who really have compassion, who really care about you as a person and when you are able to work on those areas and be intentional in that with people, it stimulates a followership in them and a loyalty in their hearts. They want to be a part of your team.
Doug Smith: 18:40 It’s clear that you’ve done that over your leadership journey and one thing I greatly admire about your journey as you’ve actually already been through succession, so you’ve handed off the baton of your church, to the next generation, your son and your daughter-in-law, and that’s gone really, really well and I know a lot of pastors right now, are in a season where they’re either thinking transition. They’re trying to execute a transition and a succession plan. I’ll just leave this open ended. What did you learn through the process and what would your advice be to those leaders and pastors who are thinking succession?
Tom Mullins: 19:09 I think if you’ve been a leader for any length of time, I think the organization, you have to always be thinking, well ahead. I think that’s what leaders do. We always are looking down the road. We’re trying to plan, prepare for the opportunity’s going to come our way in the future. One of the things I learned as a coach that preparation is the key to victory. Coaches are fanatical about preparation for games and how much more should we be for preparation for our organizations, for the future of them as well. So as I was looking at the church and its growth, I was always thinking about this, this idea of succession and to me there is no true success without an effective succession plan. I think the true legacy of any leader is going to be really manifested in how well they transitioned their leadership, how well did the organization they were leading do after they were no longer the key leader in the organization and that organization to me, the one of my most fulfilling aspects of leadership is the fact that Christ Fellowship since we passed the baton now, approximately eight years ago, is doubled in size, is growing as doing tremendously.
Tom Mullins: 20:30 It’s doing great. It’s the old adage that as a leader, I wanted my ceiling to be the floor for the next generation of leaders. So now they’re taking it to the whole other level. And, I’m their biggest cheerleader. I’m just cheering our team on. My son Todd, his wife Julie, our whole team has just done a phenomenal job in taking this thing and going with it, but we actually had a transition plan, Doug, that we worked on for five years. I was thinking five years out and preparing for that and what that plan would look like, what I need to do to get my successor Todd ramped up and ready to go. I kind of do it like a relay race, in a relay race, you’re running, you have the exchange zone and in that exchange zone, the runners coming in their full speed, Well I was at full speed.
Tom Mullins: 21:24 One thing I’ve learned, and I tell guys all the time, don’t pass the baton when you’re starting to slow down, past the baton when you’re still at full speed, while you’re still got a lot of run in you, that’s when you pass it. You don’t walk away from the game when you’re worn out and injured, you know you want to be at the top of your game when you pass the baton, you gotta hit the exchange zone at full speed. I had people tell me, Doug, well, what are you doing, pastor? You still got all this energy and vitality and, and you’re strong and, you know, boom, boom, boom. And you know, I said, no, it’s not about me. It’s about when the one I’m going to pass the baton to is at full speed. When they’re full speed and I’m in full speed, that’s when you want to pass the baton.
Tom Mullins: 22:06 So my goal was, I knew I was running at full speed and still strong and still have some in me so, but I wanted to get my successor up the full speed, that was Todd. So what did I need to do to get him up to full speed? I want to introduce him to my world. I wanted to help him grow. I want to help grow in this weakened communication skills, because I was the primary communicator in our church. So I’d work him into that, had to work him into other areas of leadership and exposure behind the scenes with the staff, with the board with, our work with other churches, other partnerships. So we had a very intentional plan to get Todd up to full speed and once he was up to full speed, boom, we made the pass and, and now I’m cheering him on and he’s running around the track.
Tom Mullins: 22:55 And the amazing thing I tell guys to is there is life beyond the pass of the baton. I think some guys think, well, if I step aside or I bring someone else up into my role and what for me there? Well, there’s a lot waiting for us there because there’s the opportunities to mentor and to encourage a, to write, to support, to be a part of helping other organizations grow and, and make their succession successful in their transition. So that was part of the key. I think it really comes down to a philosophy. I wrote a book on passing the leadership baton that for anyone that’s contemplating a succession, it would be a great read for them because we talk about all the practical things you do to get yourself ready, to get your team ready, to get a whole organization ready. Because you have to think the whole organization wide in order to have an effective succession.
Doug Smith: 23:52 I love that. And I’m just curious, did you have a plan already for what you were going to do post succession or did you have a little blip where you had an identity crisis? Was there anything like that for you? Or was it a pretty smooth transition? You knew what your purpose is?
Tom Mullins: 24:04 It was smooth for us because we had already thought through those things and prepared for that. But it can be a problem. I mean some of the reasons guys hold on the baton too long is because of that hesitation of well, what is life going to look like afterwards? But see, here’s another issue. You, never leave something. You’re always going to something. So I think it’s, not like, oh, I’m leaving this and all my identity is tied up there. My identity is really tied up in a, the organization success, and my successor’s success and the team and as well as what I’m called to do in that next phase of my life. So it’s like people say, well, are you retired? I said, no, I’m not retiring. I’m repositioning. So repositioning myself to continue to be effective and to add value as I go.
Doug Smith: 25:04 And curiosity, clearly you made the right decision with the success of the succession, but it was a blessing, I’m sure to have your actual family takeover. But was there any thought of do we need to do this externally internally? And do you have any advice for leaders as they process that? I’m sure as a dad, people may want their kids to do it. I mean, do you have any advice for that?
Tom Mullins: 25:27 You know I had a son like todd who was more than able, his gift mix and his passions aligned with the demands of this role. If you don’t have flesh and blood to transition to, then you need to have as I believe spiritual sons that you’re developing that can have the heart, the DNA, the culture because as you know, all of that is critical to effective transitions in any organization. So I think that’s where you have to plan and prepare. So I’m working with guys helping them identify that and identify the traits that are needed in the leaders that are going to step into and take the organization to it’s next level. And not everyone, not every son or daughter is gifted in that way. So I think it’s important that you don’t force people into roles just because they are family and because you would like to have them have the role they have to. Their gift mix has to fit that and their passion has to fit that. I would have never asked my son to step into the role he’s in if he was not passionate about doing it and had the right gift mix to do it. So I think that’s the challenge.
Doug Smith: 26:43 So as we start to wrap up, just two fun questions. You’re 73. Clearly you have a ton of energy and, and fired up about life. I’m just curious, what are you dreaming about at 73 years old? What is just burning inside of your heart?
Tom Mullins: 26:44 Well, you know, that’s a great question. I have a passion for the church. I have a passion to see all that God is doing here through Christ Fellowship and, and the future of Christ Fellowship is still, I wake up in the morning and I’m excited about what God is doing here every day. I’m also very excited about, having the privilege now to be a spiritual father to a lot of sons in the gospel around the country and, and the other nations. I have the privilege to coach a lot of young pastors and churches and I love them and I love coaching them.
Tom Mullins: 27:34 I love coming alongside of them and helping them and see them grow. I have opportunities internationally right now to help the church at large internationally that I’m very excited about and one of my favorite places in the world is Africa and I’ve been leading in a leadership movement in Africa for years for John Maxwell. So we have a lot of things going on at that excite me, and there’s things are going on in our nation that right now that opportunities for having for leadership and impact. But that’s kind of where I am right now. And I’ve got a couple of books I’m working on as well when I get this dissertation done, I’m going to jump into a couple of books that I believe will help the church grow and build a leadership culture within the church because I think that is a number one need for churches to continue to grow and expand their ministry is they create an intentional leadership culture, so they are raising up emerging leaders and empowering them to go out and have impact with the love and message of Jesus Christ.
Doug Smith: 28:37 Love it. Just curious, are there any current coaches that are coaching currently that you admire and look up, maybe not look up to, but really learn a lot from. And then maybe just one who’s your favorite coach of all the time?
Tom Mullins: 28:51 Oh Wow. Man, that’s tough. Boom, boom, boom. There are so many guys out there I love. And of course, you know, you have the legendary guys. Everyone learned from Bear Bryant, the power of preparation. He was fanatical. Bear would prepare one hour for every minute of the game on an average of 60 hours of preparation for that 60 minute game. And most, of the coaches took that preparation essentially from him. Yeah, Belichick at New England- that is just unbelievable. You know, and I’ve never been a New England fan, but I love the way that guy coaches, you know, I’ve always grown up a big fan of Ohio state because I grew up in Ohio. I, Urban Meyer has gone through some rough waters here recently, but he is a great coach. He’s wrote a book called Above the Line, which is really a great read.
Tom Mullins: 29:41 There’s a thing going on with one of his staff members on, I’m sorry for that whole thing has happened and I feel sorry for the people involved in that. But there are a lot of great guys out there, you know, we all love Vince Lombardi, you know, he’s the legend, we all grew up loving them. So, you know, I, I love some of the older guys were encouraging to me, but we got a lot of young coaches out there. They’re doing a great job and, you know, so I’ve, I’m actually a fan of so many teams. It’s really funny because, we have guys from our church are playing on several of the pro teams.
Doug Smith: 30:19 I’m from Pittsburgh, are you a steeler fan at all?
Tom Mullins: 30:21 You know what? I, I love the Steelers. I loved them in their heyday when they were really just pounding everybody. And how do you not love Terry Bradshaw? And of course I met Tony Dungy. He’s a great guy. I love Tony, a great guy, in some great football, greats that we’ve met through the years, but yeah, you know, and I, I grew up in Cincinnati, you know, north of Cincinnati. But you know, it’s really funny. I’ve never really been in crazy Bengals fan. I was a Browns fan because that was the only team we had back when I was there. And now the Browns bless her heart. We need a moment of silent prayer for the Browns.
Doug Smith: 30:56 Well they tied us last week, so that was an interesting experience.
Tom Mullins: 31:00 They had a tie right?
Doug Smith: 31:01 Yep, Steelers, and Browns, yeah.
Tom Mullins: 31:03 Well, hey, that’s not a loss, so that’s helpful for them.
Doug Smith: 31:07 Just as we close is there anything you want to leave leaders with today?
Tom Mullins: 31:10 You know, I, I think just be a person, always a person of integrity. Be a person that is looking to add value in every situation, so when you do that, when I found that when you’re trying to add value, you will not have to worry about the value that you need added to your life. I think your focus is always, how do I make my team better and add value to my team, and if you’ll do that and keep growing your team, it will help you to be successful in whatever you do. God bless.
Doug Smith: 31:41 Thank you so much and good luck on your paper.
Tom Mullins: 31:43 Thank you.
Doug Smith: 31:46 Hi everyone. Thank you so much for listening to our interview with Coach Mullins. I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did and if you enjoy this podcast, it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe and leave a rating and review, it helps us to grow our audience and I would just appreciate it so much, so thank you in advance for that. You can find the notes from this episode, ways to connect with Coach and links to everything that we discussed in the show notes at L3leadership.org/episode206 on our website. You’ll also be able to sign up for our email list to stay up to date with all of our current content and events and everything that we’re doing here at L3, so I encourage you to sign up for that as well. I want to thank our sponsor, Alex Tulandin.
Doug Smith: 32:22 Alex is a full time realtor with Keller Williams Realty and if you were looking to buy or sell a house in the Pittsburgh market, Alex is your guy. He’s a member and a supporter of L3 Leadership and he would love to have an opportunity to connect with you. You can learn more about Alex@Pittsburghpropertyshowcase.com. I also want to thank our sponsor Henne Jewelers. They’re a jeweler owned by my friend and mentor, John Henne, my wife Laura, and I got her engagement and wedding rings through Henne Jewelers and we just love them. They’re an incredible organization and they invest in couples both on the premarital side and once they get married and we love that they invest beyond just selling jewelry. And so, uh, if you’re in need of a good jeweler, check them out at hennejewelers.com. As always, I like to end with a quote and I’ll quote Dave Ramsey, one of my heroes today. He said this, he said, “Success is a pile of failure. You’re just standing on top of it, not underneath it.” I love that. Thank you so much for listening and being a part of L3 leadership. Laura and I appreciate you so much and we will talk to you next episode.